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My experience grinding through Italy tree and my opinion about the overall grinding and balancing of War Thunder
Hello, I'm a MMORPG player since my childwood, played a lot of games and now I've met the military vehicles games and got into them, as my friends play it and I wanted to play with my friends. Just for some background, I'm a South America player, so please forgive me if I make some mistakes in the english, and the first game of this kind I've played was World of Warships in december, 2018. After some months of playing and frustrating with Cruisers I met War Thunder and started playing, only with tanks and mostly if USSR. Never went through Tier II and stop playing after a month or two.
After some good months I made a friend irl who brough me back to War thunder. Grinded a lot of tech trees, going futher rank III in some like USSR (tanks), US (planes) and UK (Tanks and Planes. Today I have 869 hours in War Thunder and my account register 2740 battles.
Ah, yes I forgot, I'm a Realistic battle player.
- ITALY TANK TECH TREE EXPERIENCE
Rank I - Tanks
I don't remember exactly what I had and used because it was some good months ago but I will talk about what I remember.
Ignored the AS 42, grinded it but never used, wasn't worth.
L3/33 C was a mixed experience. The fast shooting was fun to use but there was a lot of enemies it couldn't pen. It is the only vehicle I used of the italian line of TDs, the other ones I only grinded the necessary to keep going, but never used them.
AB 1 this was my type of vehicle, although it suffer in the same problem of the L3/33 C of not having good penetration, I was able to move really fast and shoot fast. I liked a lot this vehicle. And if you are intends grinding Italy tanks, you need to like this vehicle to be able to play the best Italy have to offer.
L6/40 was somewhat fun to use too but was sluggish.
The other tanks I used some but mostly just skipped because they were not fun at all to use.
Rank II - Tanks
I loved the AB 1 style so my first go was AB 43 and it was a good choice. It was fast and could pen enemies that AB 1 couldn't. I recommend picking it as first rank 2 vehicle. I used it with AB 1 and L6/40 as a line for grinding M15/42, 90/53 M41M and P40.
When I got both M41M and P40 I changed my lineup using both of them to grind the other Rank 2 vehicles.
M41M is a really good Tank Destroyer. It fits the role of being able to kill amost anything, and with one shot. Even being really weak at first glance, its tower somewhat managed to get me a lot of ricochets, I really mean when I say A LOT. Loved this TD and mostly of enemies shot tower first, sometimes getting ricochets an letting me kill them. But there was some guys that were smart enough to shoot the hull and make my life hell. Use and abuse M41M
P40 is not a bad tank compared tho the other ones in rank 1 and rank 2 italian tree, however it's tower is really slow and the armor isn't there, anything can pen you, and playing it was more like a "who shot first win", but yeah, this is war thunder, 90% of the encounters are "who shot first win". Don't remember much of this tank.
Rank III - Tanks
Oh boy, where comes the BREDA and R3 T20.
This is the rank where Italy start to show it's shine.
First my lineup. I grinded Breda first using M41M and P40. Replaced P40 for Breda and grinded R3 T20. My rank 3 lineup was just those three vehicles.
Breda is a fantastic TD, I can't express the love I felt for this vehicle. I managed some of my bests matches with it. It's fast and will kill everything it meets. I really don't rememeber to face any enemy I couldn't pen. And it will kill everything with one shot, mostly. However, it's a open vehicles, so planes are going thirsty against you, and most of them will be tanks that you destroyed and want revenge.
Breda is the start of your suffering with italy vehicles. It has weels and suffers in a lot of terrains losing completly it's speed advantage. Breda is about knowing the map, and where you will get advantage. The fire power will kill anything so even when you lose the speed advantage you have the fire power.
R3 T20 is the same weel vehicle. Be ready guys, this is one of the most hated vehicles you will get. But the ones that hates it, are the enemies. R3 T20 is super fast and has only one 20mm cannon but this cannon can shred both planes and tanks.
It's an AA so remember to always focus aircraft. Because if any aircraft with a good weaponry spots you, it can easly kill you. I always used only AP ammo, it was more than enough to take care of planes and let me take care of tanks too.
The cannon cannot pen tanks in the front, but on the sides it can pen a good amount of enemies, not everyone of course. But it's so fun run through battlefield fast and be in places anyone expects you to be, and killing enemies tanks with a 20mm cannon. So when they take the plane for revange you can just kill the plane too. It's a really fun vehicle.
I used R3 T20 as AA in every lineup until I got the Otomatic.
Get used to the R3 T20 hull, you will be using it a lot. And get used to fear US tanks. They have .50 machine gun that can still be used, even after taking out the gunner, to kill you easly with some shots. .50 Can pen you, remember that.
M4 Tipo IC is not a bad tank too, but lacks lineup, just forget it.
Rank IV - Tanks
I'm not gonna lie, I loved so much my rank 3 lineup that I used it to grind every single vehicle of rank IV. Only when I unlocked rank V, I started playing with rank IV, so I already had a full lineup to use from the start.
At the start I used Fiat 6614, AUBL/74 and M26A1 (and R3 T20). However I found out that the M26A1 suck so bad and was so frustrating to use, that I gave up of it and removed.
M26A1 was slow, and every shot killed me. So, instead of just dying like nothing, I removed it from my lineup as I rather go for another battle than taking one extra vehicle just to die and pay repair.
FIAT 6614 was a good vehicle, the hull is different of R3 T20 but I remember having the same fear of .50 machine guns. The only problem you can find with 6614 is that you can get killed by machine guns, it's not fast as R3 T20, the cannon have problems with the copola and it have a long reloading time. It's still a fast vehicle and have fire power to kill even the most armoured US tanks of its BR.
For ammo, I carried mostly HESH shells and some HEAT shells. HESH can be troll but if you get lucky, and shoot right place, it will kill everyone inside the tank so there will be no .50 to kill you. HEAT is more safe option, it can pen front of anything but lacks damage, sometimes killing the gunner but letting the .50 free to kill you before you reload.
AUBL/74 was a frustrating vehicle. The Heat-fs shell it uses have no good post penetration effect so it almost always kill the gunner but let the .50 open to return fire and kill you. Because of that I always tried to take long range shooting positions and tried to snipe people from where they don't expect and can have some trouble finding me to return fire.
Rank V - Tanks
I grinded R3 T106 FA and used it in a lineup with AUBL, FIAT 6614 and R3 T20 and grinded all the rank 5 vehicles before change lineup.
R3 T106 FA is the best armoured car you will have. With the double of Fiat 6614 firepower and more speed is one of my favourite vehicles of italy. Suffers from the same problem as other italian armoured cars, .50 machine guns and planes. Can carry only 10 shells, 5 per cannon.
Always shoot one cannon per time. If the enemy survives, you shoot the other cannon. You don't have much ammo so go easy with the ones you have. Unless if the enemy pops up already aiming at you, at this time of dispair, better shoot both than die and shoot nothing.
For ammo choice, I always take 3 HESH shells for both cannons and 2 HEAT shells for both cannons. After the first shoot, I change one of the cannons for HEAT and the other I let it with HESH. This allowed me to be able to shoot armoured tanks safely as HEAT have more penetration, and I could shoot the other tanks no so armored with the HESH cannon.
M47 falls in the same problem as M26A1, Slow tank that gets killed by everything. I didn't used M47.
Sidam 25 is a really slow AA and works only as AA. Has the advantage of being able to lock on targets but I rather use R3 T20 for being able to move around and sometimes take one or other tank. But if you don't fell confortable with you aim agains aircraft, the Sidam lock can help you. I didn't like it.
Centauro is a good vehicle for its BR. It's fast, have a good cannon (it's a nice looking vehicle), I liked using it a lot, mostly for long range maps where I could go to long places and Snipe people. I used a mix of ammo. For long maps I rather use more APDS than Heatfs for easy aiming, but for not long maps I rather use Heatfs over APDS because of better penetration values. Try both and decides what you rather, both are frustrating shells, however I think Heatfs is less frustrating, for me.
OF-40 is a nice looking tank, somewhat fast, but not armored at all, but I think if you managed to get to rank V you already know that Italy doens't like armor. It doens't have stabilized gun and you sometimes faces enemies with stabilized guns, be ready to die. Unleass he misses the shoot, you will get killed or loses the gunner and then get killed. There isn't much to say about it. Is a good vehicles but against uptiered matches it will suffer. Try to snipe, you have more chances, but I always like to rush so OF-40 was a mix of fellings to me.
After unlocking everything in rank 5, I changed my lineup to R3 T20, R3 T106, Centauro and OF-40.
Now comes the hard part.
Rank VI - Tanks
I grinded OF-40 mk 2A first, as it's a stabilazed version of OF-40, and replaced OF-40 for it. Then grinded Otomatic and then Ariete (p) and lastly the Centauro ROMOR.
OF-40 mk 2A maybe better at some points but for me the only difference that matters is the stabilized cannon and APFSDS. (but to me honest, I don't remember using APFSDS on it. Maybe is just a fail of my memory, or maybe they added it later.)
Centauro ROMOR is the same as OF-40 mk 2A. A better version of Centauro but what only matters is the stabilized gun and the APFSDS. The armor is useless to be honest. I heard a lot of youtubers saying that the lack of armor is a good thing because of overpens but even when it's APFSDS fired at me, I get killed no matters where it hits because Vehicle Burns Out. It's a good and fun vehicle but has no advantage in speed because of it's BR, Centauro ROMOR fights MBTs that can even be faster than him so your role are sniping from where they have hard time finding out, and spotting.
Otomatic. Okay, I need to be honest, Otomatic is the jewel of Italy tech tree. It has radar and can lock on. Can easly kills helis and with some time you can kill jets easly too, just need to know when shoot and when not shoot as you can easly finish you first storage in seconds, and you don't want to wait several secons for shooting.
Otomatic is a hard vehicle to play when you don't have APFSDS. You can use Heat to kill enemy MBTs but you need to get their side and shoot at the right places, so probably you are going to get killed before. And sometimes the enemy spawns only one heli and one jet and you can't do much in the match. But this was in the early of helis showdown, today we get more than we would like to get...
When you get APFSDS Otomatic becomes one of the most fun vehicles to play. You can just rush cities and give any shit about the enemies MBT, if you aim first, you will get the kill easly as you can shoot several times and they can have only one shot and if the enemy misses the right spot, he is dead.
I can't explain how much fun is the Otomatic, but I can say that for me, is better than Ariete.
Ariete (P) is your first top tier MBT, to be honest it doesn't have anything special. Doesn't have armor, doesn't have the best speed, doesn't have the better balistics or gun. So I didn't expect nothing of it, and I'm happy with that. As I didn't expect nothing, I don't get as much frustrated. Playing Ariete (P) is just some more of "who shoot first wins".
However Ariete (P) gets a problem that will follow you futher on, the ammo position at the side of driver. With the ammo here, you can easly get ammo detonation and with the ammo at the side of the tower sometimes you will get detonated even when the enemy was just trying to kill your gunner only.
Rank VII - Tanks
Where comes the Ariete, the italian MBT that finally have some advantage over others, and it's the ammo.
However I'm not going to talk about it because...
I don't have it :)
As further you go on the ranks, the harder becomes to get the modifications and you can easly grind a top tier tank completly without spading out the one that you are using to grind.
But yeah, Ariete is the only rank 7 vehicle I have, sorry guys. I can't talk anything special about it because what it have special I didn't unlock yet.
Now let's move for Aircraft.
- ITALY AIRCRAFT TECH TREE EXPERIENCE
Don't worry guys, it's going to be short. Just a observation, when I grinded it, there was no Re. 2000 Line so I don't know anything about those planes. And I ignored the bombers because they seems to have a bad loadout.
Aircraft have better rewarding system than tanks so I decided to play only a few planes and save money by not using all the planes and training crew several times, so my experience will have a lot of holes.
Rank I - Aircraft
I don't remember what I used exactly but I think it was Ba.65 in arcade battles until I get the C.200. After getting it I moved again to Realistic battles.
C. 200. I don't remember much of this plane so I can't say much, but it's a low tier aircraft. Unlike tanks, in planes is easier to go through low tier vehicles if you play somewhat good.
Rank II - Aircraft
Used the C. 200 to grind until the C. 202EC an then moved to it.
C. 202EC with the glorious germany ammo, this is one of the best things that italy have, the german explosive ammo. Always use the Air Target belts, you can easly kill enemies with just some taps on the mouse.
C. 202EC is not the fastest but have a good manoeuvrability. You can't out turn Zeros but most of time zeros are in your time anyway, so you can try dogfight without much fear.
With the italy aircraft I always side climb until 3000m and then turn to the battle, however if there is no battle when I get to 3000m I keep going higher. Altitude is advantage,
Rank III - Aircraft
I used C. 202EC to grind until the G.55 Serie 1. It was not hard, the C. 202EC performs really well and the fire power is lovely.
G. 55 Serie 1 is a C. 202EC but better. It can turn really well, have cannons that have the good advantage of being in the center of the plane, so is easier to aim, climb well, not as good as germany ones but equal or better than your enemies. Have a good accelaration but can get hot sometimes, go easy on wep.
Because of it's good accelaration and rate of climb, I try to side climb at the direction of allied bases, so if I spot an attacker plane or a bomber, I go down and kill it, and then go for the side climb again. It's not hard kill heavier planes with the G. 55 Serie 1 and other italian planes because of the, germany ammo.
You can easly out turn most of your enemies but always try to have altitude advantage, I find more success by doing BnZ and then going for turn fight than just be the target of BnZ.
But remember, G. 55 Serie 1 will get really stiff at high speeds, so if you are going down on an enemy that is really far below you, he can easly turn and you won't be able to follow.
oh yeah, almost forgot, with italian planes, never turn fight in vertical. Italy planes really lose a lot of energy when they go vertical so always turn horizontal.
Rank IV - Aircraft
I used G. 55 Serie 1 to grind until G. 56. Today I don't recommend you to do the same. I can't really recommend you to play G. 56 unless you are really good pilot or if you have a lot of money to waste.
G. 56 when spaded costs 56k SL of repair. If you die in the match, to not lose money you need to kill almost 5 enemies, IF you have premium account. It's absurd. But I didn't played other planes so I will talk about G. 56.
G. 56 is a better G. 55 Serie 1. Can turn better, have a better engine (that gets hot easier), climb better, have 4 cannons carrying the glorious germany ammo. You can easly go on heavier planes and kill them with a few shots of those cannons, but take care of you ammo, they are strong and can run out fast, shoot when you now it's going to hit.
Overall there isn't much I can say about G. 56 that I didn't said about G. 55 serie 1. G. 56 is just a really better version of it.
Rank V - Aircraft
My first jet was the G. 91 Pre serie, oh boy how I hated this guy.
G. 91 Pre serie is not a bad jet, but is just the first jet you get. And when you first change from planes to jets, it's really a shock. The playstyle is so different and you need to learn it from the beggining.
I'm not a good jet player, not going to lie. I only play sometimes because I like the idea of jets, but I'm not good.
But G. 91 pre serie and G. 91 R /1 shares the same problem to me. Machine guns. Jet matches you will face a lot of jets that have cannons that just shred you apart with one shot and you will be using machine guns that don't to any substantial damage with a few shots. It's frustrating, because you are used to shred enemies with planes using the german armmo. But they are not bad jets, I just suck at them to say anything good.
F-84G-21-RE is the jet I use for top tier ground battles. It carries a damn good payload but don't have much manoeuvrability so take care when you are doing you dives. It can do a good job fighting enemy jets in ground battles too, but today whenever I try to pick it up, some SAM came across the map and kills me without I even be able to use my payload. So is just a loss of SL bring it those days. Never used it on Air battles, so can't say anything.
Rank VII - Aircraft
G. 91 YS this jet seems to be one of the bests but as I said before I'm not a good jet pilot so I can't perform well with it. But I can point some things.
G. 91 YS have a good accelaration and manoeuvrability, probably the best of it's BR, but is a subsonic jet and can't take much speed. And is there on aircraft top tier you start seeing problem with the grind. You can easly grind planes in aircraft battles, however, grind modifications for the top tier jets is a joke. You can easly grind other 2 or almost 3 jets before spade the jet you are using to grind.
My G. 91 YS don't have missles and almost everyone I faces have missles. It's a rank IV modification if I'm not wrong so is not easy to get. And todays missles spams are no joke. I remember when I was flying last week and there was only one enemy alive agains me an other 4 allies. I was flying low just looking to 3 teammates following the last guy, and counted 7 missles being fired against the poor guy. Was a pain to watch.
But I will end here my experience if italian aircraft. The planes are really good, the first jets can be frustrating, and the top tier jets are a pain to unlock modifications. Italy doens't have a good CAS so in low and mid tier ground battles I take the plane just to take out enemies planes, as I don't carry good bombs, just some glorious german ammo.
- MY OPINION ABOUT THE GRIND IN WAR THUNDER
At the start of the post I said that I bought 80 days premium account. After getting top tier and playing some dozens of matches my friend got bored of the game, and so did I and we went for World of Warships.
I remember that when I stopped playing War Thunder there was about 40~50 days of premium account left. I start grinding italy as soons I got the premium account and stopped playing a little before getting top tier. Make the math. I grinded all the tree, aircraft and tanks in a little more than a month.
So yes, is possible to go top tier fast, but fast doesn't mean easly. I'm a college student on vacantion, and no working. I spent almost every hour I had grinding endlesly and after a month I got top tier.
If you have a lot of free time and want to spend the less amount possible in the game, yeah, you can get top tier with a few days of premium account. I recommend it? no.
After all the work I had to get top tier, what I found there was not the joy I was expecting, but more frustration. After putting so much effort in so little time, I got something near the Burnout Syndrome of War Thunder.
An then I went for World of Warships. I already have played it before so I wasn't new to the game but I didn't had a top tier because of the grind being too hard. However, what do you guys think I tought about the WoWs grind after grinding in WT?
IT WAS SO DAMN SMOOTH.
Wargaming gave me a lot of flags and later on I even got 30 days of premium account in a special lotbox. The way the tech tree in WoWs are design are way, way better than War Thunder.
The effort you will have to get only one vehicle of the other five you have to get in the same rank to move futher in WT. In WoWs you only grind one ship and then can move for the next tier. This makes the way for low to top tier so much easier and less frustrating.
But I'm not going to compare WoWs and WT. There can be some people that doesn't think it's a good way to compare those two games. What I wanted to point out is that, between those two games, one is much well designed and way easier to grind, wich makes it more encouraging to play other nations and keep grinding, than the other that after grinding one nation, gives me no motivation to grind other nation again.
What is wrong about War Thunder grind?
I think gaijin forgot about the fact that you don't go for the match with only one vehicle and that's the end. If you use only one vehicle per match I can understand you need a bigger margin to grind, but no, War Thunder is all about Lineups. If you don't have a lineup, you are in disvantage. If your nation doesn't get Gaijin love, you probably won't have a good top tier lineup. But this is Balance, I will talk about it in a minute.
So you need to grind several vehicles to be able to procced in war thunder and several of them costs a ton of RP which costs a ton of time. What else?
Modificantions. You buy a worst version of you vehicle and for getting the full vehicle you need to expend a ton of hours playing with it. At low and mid tier it's not that much, but as higher you go, the worst it becames. Tanks performance modifications lack don't hurt much, but you need parts and fire extinguisher to have some chance to do anything if you get shoot by a enemy. Top tier tanks suffers to when is about ammunition, top tier vehicles mostly need to research the APFSDS ammo while using only HEATFS or APDS, fighting against enemies who carries what? APFSDS. Not only that, but the ammo modifications usually are tier 3 or 4, which means a lot of grinding. Recently NVD became a important modification too.
Aircraft in other way, can suffer without the performance modification, and in my opinion, aircraft are really better performing with all modifications than tanks. At top tier you will as well face the problem with missles with matches that 80% of your team have missles (so will be enemy team), and you will need to grind a lot to touch missles too. As I said before, you can use one jet to grind other 2 or 3 and still not spade the jet you are using after all the grind.
Even so, I think air battles have way batter rewarding system than tanks. But still not even a easy or fast task get you jet to be complete.
Recently I got into naval battles and found out to have worst rewarding system than tanks. War Thunder naval has a lot of potential, however, I can't imagine how much people doesn't play it because for getting to the really interesting ships, the destroyers and cruisers, you have to play with those ridiculous little boats.
War Thunder naval tree is poor designed and naval battles are give poor rewards. I stopped playing naval battles.
In conclusion of the Grinding part, War Thunder wants to much effort from the player base, with someone have a life besides the game, this are going to take hell lot of time to be able to get top tier and even at top tier, you will get to the wall called modifications, that restricts you performance. And with every vehicle top tier needing more RP than almost all vehicles of rank 1 to rank 3 together, I can't express what a failure is War Thunder in terms of grinding. I really found people who grind more than one nation of tanks to top tier to be heroes, War Thunder doesn't really give my any desire to grind again, even with it having so much nations there to grind.
There is a several points that Gaijin fails on balance. And fails so bad that I really don't think that exist this thing called "Balance team" in Gaijin.
First of all I want to talk abou my experience in other MMORPGS. At the most of MMORPGs I played in my life, from time to time there is a balance patch. Some classes that are too overpowerd get nerfed and the ones that seems to be too weak get a buff. Although there will always be a class that are more powerful than others, what the devs wanted to get was a point where every class has a job to accomplish, so any class are useless.
Back to War Thunder, balancing the vehicles are not a easy task, because I think what Gaijin aims are realism at their vehicles. If the vehicles need to be realistic, they can't really buff or nerf anything because the stats of the vehicle are historicals and can't be changed. (I played with bristish, please that's not the point I want to bring to the discussion, hold your tea.)
So lets focus on top tier, because is there where the rant are more strong, and is justified.
Bad vehicles. All nations have some of those, that's natural. Any nation can't create only perfect vehicles, however, the game doesn't have every vehicle a nation created right? Yeah, of course, the game have only vehicles Gaijin wanted to put in the game. If Gaijin put a vehicle that have literally no advantage against other ones of the same type, and is no equal, but way worse, that's a fail on? Balance team.
Unbalanced vehicles. Those that are incredibly better than any other of the same type. This is a complicated topic, and when I think about balancing this I remember Riot Games balancing League of Legends. Every week has a balance patch because there is so much characters that do the same job that if one gets a little ahead of others, it's already the best choice. But I want to bring again the same thing as before, who decides what vehicle will be in the game? It's not the nation who created the vehicle, is the Gaijin. Gaijin can deliberately put in the game those vehicles that don't have that much lead against other ones.
I remember when I stopped playing, ADATS had being launched and it was doing the job of AA better than any AA and could kill tanks better than any MBT. That is a Gaijin balance team fail for putting something like that in the game while Gaijin could put a vehicle that wasn't better than any other vehicle.
Nations getting love and others don't. We all who play War Thunder for some time know that Gaijin likes US, USSR and Germany. They usually gets more vehicles than other nations. And recently we got the example of USSR getting Ka-29. In the comments of the devblog I read someone questioning about giving other nations helis, and the Dev answered that other nations like Italy don't have much helis to offer and need futher research than some others that have a lot to offer.
I remember Gaijin saying that would only add to the game nations that have every type of the vehicle war thunder has.
What's wrong there?
Gaijin could instead of giving more vehicles for a nation that already have because of "easy to research irl", could put effort in research for every other nation and giving them the vehicles to be equal to others, instead of increasing the Unbalance by giving more to some nation that already have.
(That's not only about helis okay? It's about supersonic jets, SAMs, etc. Please, don't retrain youselfs to only what you want to see).
Compression. This is a topic that is already much talked about, but I want to give my opinion. Gaijin may think that doing a decompression will hurt the matches because there isn't much players at top tier already, doing a decompression would make less people in the matches. But that's wrong. There isn't much players at top tier because Gaijin poor balancing and because of what? The hell grinding that you need to go through to be able to play modern vehicles. Not everyone can go through this, so top tier will still be desolate. If the grind was easier, this problem could be solved. (if they solve the balance problems that make players give up from playing top tier too).
There is more one thing before I finish.
There are some people, and I belive Gaijin too belives in that. US, USSR and Germany have more players, so we need to treat them better and give to them the most, so we can profit.
This is so wrong of mindset. Do you know why most people play those three nations?
Because the grind is so damn hard and frustrating, that to grind other nation players just rather don't grind.
World of Warships have a smooth grind that makes you want to play other nations, War Thunder have a hard grind that makes you want to stop playing.
I do not expect my topic to change anything. Put hours and hours of my sunday just writing this, but if just that could do something, Gaijin would already change because it's not a little amount of problems and not little amount of players unhappy.
I don't know what I expect to get with this topic, but I hope not being forgot.
Thanks for those who read until there.
Love you guys.
Space Dogfight - "Space Dogfight" is a single-player fast-paced flying shooting game that can be played with a mouse (does not support gamepad). In 15 minutes, players need to drive a spaceship to fight enemies on a randomly generated space battlefield. The game can be customized The number of AI.
|submitted by dejobaan to WhatsOnSteam|